On the legal rights of posters to Phoenix Rising
Snipping what I won't comment on:Originally Posted by Cort
First, I am with Shiso, Koan and Dreambirdie in objecting against this: I don't like Facebook - I want none of it, or I'd been there long ago - and I DO think you (who IS the legally responsible guy) SHOULD have put this to the forum e.g. with a poll before imposing it as a matter of course on everyone.
I am against it, and if I'd been asked I'd have said: NO WAY. Also, while I am one who probably is in a position to defend himself better than most, herewith my ruling as to Facebook:
If you want the morality of that in view of the fact that I also write to be read:
I don't and never did go to whorehouses either, nor do I want my writings pricked on the walls in whorehouses because the whores & customers & pimps may find it to be delectable reading for a whorehouses set of customers.
Second, I do know some Dutch copyright law, and neither you nor Phoenix Rising nor any inc. that this might turn into has ANY right to dispose over MY posts as if it is THEIR (or at present, Cort: YOUR) property. The text of MY posts on Phoenix Rising are MY property, or that of my inheritors, for the next 28 years at the very least.
Third, as to:
If someone wanted to use the material from the Forums to write a book or make a movie or whatever they would, I assume, have to contact Phoenix Rising and 'we' would have to contact you.
When I originally read this - before ever posting - I took it to mean that nobody ELSE than me could dispose over MY posts on Phoenix Rising, and the same for everybody else posting on it, and that "Phoenix Rising" i.e. legally speaking Mr Cort Johnson would protect all posters from being pirated.
As you present it now it seems as if this should be taken in the sense:
MM is puzzled and asks
Is this meant in the sense
"All posts of anyone on Phoenix Rising, after having been posted on Phoenix Rising, are the legal property of 'Phoenix Rising' i.e. Cort Johson, and his inheritors were he to die"
NO WAY, Cort!
And I would please have your answer on this soon: Are Koan and Dreambirdie and Dr. Yes and _Kim_ and I making over our personal rights in our personal prose to you by the act of publising it on Phoenix Rising?!
This is a SERIOUS worry to me, and I don't want it, and also never bargained for it (and you can expect some sharp bargaining if the last puzzled part is your intention).
Not speaking for myself, but speaking since I raised the point yesterday on the forum for - someone like - Koan (who doesn't know I am raising this now):
Koan is one of the persons on the forum who is very good with words and who may make money with that talent. I think SHE is entitled to make money by HER writings, also if they are on the Phoenix Rising Forums - and I don't think she'll abuse anyone on the forums or the forums themselves if she succeeds in doing so (though I agree that - where the possibility of publising (part of) some of one's own posts for money oneself is concerned - prior mailing before proceeding to talk of Phoenix Rising in one's own publications, with "The Owner Of" i.e. Cort Johnson is the correct thing to do).
Fourth, as to
If you have particular concerns about the Post sharing capabilities of the Forum please contact me via pm and I'll share them with the moderators and administrators.
That's... disingenuous Cort: I have also particular concerns with highway robbery and forced Russian roulette, and your message to the effect that - ♪♪"just in case, you know: there be silly persons too"♪♪ - IF one has "particular concerns about the Post sharing capabilities " The Owner Of Phoenix Rising (for such is what you are, Cort) will "share them with the moderators and administrators" is NOT a legally or morally correct answer, I'm sorry to say.
You should have put the Post sharing capabilities of the Forum and your plan to extend these to Facebook and other shit (IM not HO) to the Forum BEFORE imposing them; you should have considered and mentioned the dangers this may involve to posters clearly; and indeed there should be - but alas I am talking of the would-be wizards of vBulletin - an option (a setting, in one's Personal Settings) that prevents posting one's posts on the Forums elsewhere, at the behest of the writers of the posts.
To say or imply that here 'Caveat Emptor' applies and that one can inform oneself about the dangers of the internet on the internet again would not be fair nor honest, and indeed you have not bought my or anyone's posts through the act of posting it on a forum that is legally yours. (And I am quite aware that you may not at all have been saying what you seem to be saying - but let there be no misunderstandings about who owes the rights to Koan's, Cort's, Maarten's, Dr. Yes's or Dreambirdie's writings: Respectively Koan, Cort, Maarten, Dr. Yes and Dreambirdie, and no one else, just as said persons are legally and personally responsible and accountable for their own words, and entitled to make money from their own creative talents, if they want and can.)
Fifth, as to
I would note that some of that capability has been present since the Forums were created.
So what? The capability of doing evil also is present since men were created or arose and the lack of full understanding of these capabilities is almost as widespread as men are - but I do want you to be quite clear and upfront about
(A) linking the Phoenix Forums, with tens of thousands of personal posts by all manner of people who run serious risks if their identities are known to the health bureaucracies or others, to other forums or would be forums like Facebook
(B) in what way "the Phoenix Forums" that is, legally, at this moment, Cort Johnson (and his eventual heirs) - AND I QUOTE
"Phoenix Rising" (such as it is) 'owns' the posts.
I'd appreciate clear and unambiguous answers - and no: I take it you mean well, but I DO want to insist MY posts have MY copyright, just a I decide who has the right to use them in any creative work of another (and not you, just like your prose is yours and not mine).
Sixth, and last:
As I indicated, I think you should have and should put both this wider linking and this ownership business of members's posts QUITE EXPLICITLY AND UP FRONT to the members of the Phoenix Forums, so that they can consciously think about it and decide what they want.
And as I indicated, I think you should help Koan and Dreambirdie to (i) get easy, fast and complete access to all their own posts and (ii) to help them to make cleaning up their posts for universal distributions to all and anyone without their prior permission (for that's what it amounts to) a LOT easier than it is at present.
Maarten (who doesn't like this modus operandi nor these suggestions of quasi-judicial disowning of the products of his brain ).
P.S. And to spell it out: I am also not crazily possessive about what I write about ME (and programming and many more things I put on my site), but I don't want it on Facebook if I can help it, just as I don't want it on a Nazi-site if I can help it (to make my point clearly - and I don't like nor trust Facebook), and you have been rather careless with what I think are people's rights in their own writings, although I also can understand your enthusiasm about Phoenix Forums and the plight people with ME are in getting known widely.
O, and I've just woken up, so may later see some need to edit my ME-ified typos (the study of which, not in me but on this Forum, would be worth a few Ph.D.s in cognitive psychology, 'tseems to me, by the way ).